nordgeit
Windows User
More of an artist than a programmer... Currently. Might do something fun with my C128D
Posts: 3 
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Post by nordgeit on Jul 3, 2022 1:06:15 GMT
Prelude
(You can just skip to the summary if you like efficiency)
My first post and I already have a skill issue- Greetings. I am fresh blood, that's all you need to know about me. Originally meant as a school project, a teacher in my first year of videregående brought in an old C128D since he noticed my fascination with old machines. While he did retire that year, the original plan was to demo it in the school library. You know, games, music, art, the likes.
That never came to fruition. So when it was finally time to quit, the school just let me have the old machine. It still works, and I have a plan for it... The plan was to utilize its sid chip to make music, and other noises. Oh, and making cool sprites. However, I ran into an issue.
The skill issue
So space is limited in my workspace. Pretty seriously. Can't bring a bulky CRT in, 'least not with the mess I tend to create at my desk. And while I had plans to get an 8" LCD, that fell through when it was an incredibly difficult endeavour to get something that was lean enough that had composite input. Norwegian market is limited, and I heavily dislike the concept of ebay, amazon, or getting it directly from china. So I moved to the next solution, getting a capture card. So I searched around, and found this video showing the Hauppauge USB-Live2 working on a C64. I figured "Hey, maybe it would work on my C128, considering its compatability?" Especially since it was actually available in Norwegian stores. I was wrong. After asking the guy, he tested it with a PAL modded machine and got the same result. I tried going into the driver and checking the different PAL standards, even the french SECAM ones, and save for PAL_M and PAL_60 just not being able to be switched to, all the inputs looked basically the same. Hauppauge's own software made no display, notably. Thanks OBS very cool I checked the C128D again using the TV I had, and the composite output works just fine, and I checked the capture card with a Gamecube, so the capture card works properly, so it means that there's some major incompatability issue between the C128D and the capture card... So, if there's any PAL machine users, if any of you have managed to get a capture of a C128 or any of its variants, what did you go through?
The summaryHas a PAL Commodore 128D (Plastic type case with the little keyboard spot under the machine) Keyboard has added Norwegian lettering, and on the machine, claims to be made in West Germany Want to use it for art Issues finding a suitable screen, moved to capture card usage instead (low space + specialist needs + norwegian market = recipe for high cost, I'm a NEET, I can't afford THAT much)
Tested all the standards the capture card driver could Wondering if anyone else managed to get a solid capture from a PAL C128(D) and how they did it That is all the information I can provide, and I hope someone could help me out here. Sincerely NordGeit
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Post by robertb on Jul 3, 2022 5:39:40 GMT
So, if there's any PAL machine users, if any of you have managed to get a capture of a C128 or any of its variants, what did you go through?
If you are only concerned about 40-columns out of the C128, I have used a Dell U2410F monitor which is PAL and NTSC-compatible through its composite video input.
But it doesn't have a composite video output (pass-through), Robert Bernardo Fresno Commodore User Group - http:://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm |
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Post by xahmol on Aug 25, 2022 9:07:20 GMT
Hi, very late reply as I actually only recently discovered this forum (yes, shame on me). I can tell what I use to stream both 40 and 80 column simultaniously from my PAL C128D: - For 40 column, I use a DIN to S-Video cable to connect to a Framemeister xRGB Mini. Use the Framemeister because I have one, but due to it's price and availability would not recommend it, the Retrotink 2X Pro is a very good alternative that I also own and use for other retro's (like my Commodore Plus/4). This does sound as well, but myself prefer to separate the sound leads of that S-Video cable to a separate mixer that outputs the sound via USB to my PC. - For 80 column I use an RGB2HDMI which connects to my C128Ds RGBI output and converts to HDMI. - To capture the resulting HDMI signals and record them with OBS I use two Elgato Camlink 4Ks. To show what this gives me: Dual screen demo of Petscii Robots 128 Dual screen demo of my own DMBoot software here launching a C64 game from C128 80 column mode: 80 column capture of Risen from Oblivion v2: 80 column capture of Colour Spectrum demo: Another option that is much cheaper and especially handy if you already have a SCART enabled screen or a good SCART to HDMI converter: c128adapter.pook.nl/This outputs both the 40 column as 80 column display to SCART. Not simultaniously though. |
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nordgeit
Windows User
More of an artist than a programmer... Currently. Might do something fun with my C128D
Posts: 3
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Post by nordgeit on Aug 31, 2022 23:24:59 GMT
Hi, very late reply as I actually only recently discovered this forum (yes, shame on me). I can tell what I use to stream both 40 and 80 column simultaniously from my PAL C128D: - For 40 column, I use a DIN to S-Video cable to connect to a Framemeister xRGB Mini. Use the Framemeister because I have one, but due to it's price and availability would not recommend it, the Retrotink 2X Pro is a very good alternative that I also own and use for other retro's (like my Commodore Plus/4). This does sound as well, but myself prefer to separate the sound leads of that S-Video cable to a separate mixer that outputs the sound via USB to my PC. - For 80 column I use an RGB2HDMI which connects to my C128Ds RGBI output and converts to HDMI. - To capture the resulting HDMI signals and record them with OBS I use two Elgato Camlink 4Ks. Another option that is much cheaper and especially handy if you already have a SCART enabled screen or a good SCART to HDMI converter: c128adapter.pook.nl/This outputs both the 40 column as 80 column display to SCART. Not simultaniously though I'm glad there actually is a second reply...
Aww man, Is there really no other viable option than a retrotink...? It's not the most expensive thing I've spent my NEETbux on (The HD600 and DAC+amp, vive wireless and in the future SLA printer would take that crown), but I still feel that's a fair bit of money being taken... Ah well, maybe I'll find some extra uses for it down the line. I am a bit worried if it does accept my PAL C128D input, however. Would be nice if you would clarify the region, or if you knew someone who has tried with a PAL system.
The Elgato Camlinks are... Well, at least they're available here, but they're a fair bit expensive for my tastes... I'll have to see what I'm left with after getting the Retrotink, I suppose.
The only SCART items I have is a composite to SCART adapter, so SCART isn't really a question unless we're including the adapter.
Honestly, I'm fairly close to just grabbing a 7-9" composite monitor meant for use in a car of all things, and praying to Tanngrisnir it works. If it does, then I don't mind finding myself unable to stream or capture it for a while, as music is the main purpose and I need the display most of all.
I stayed up later than I should typing out and doing a bit of research on my own... And my sleep schedule just went back to relative normalcy... Sometimes, I wish the situations I found myself in wouldn't be so utterly difficult to research on. May the darkness at summers end last enough for slumber to take me and give me the strength for the trials coming the following morning. NordGeit, signing off.
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Post by xahmol on Sept 1, 2022 5:57:19 GMT
I can confirm that my Retrotink works great with my PAL C128D system (as said) 😉 I use my Retrotink with both German and UK PAL 64, 128 and Plus/4 models. Located in the Netherlands myself. Yes, all on all it is not cheap. That adapter to SCART might actually be the cheapest solution if you find one of the cheap SCART to HDMI adapters that actually work, which is really hit and miss and hard to advice in as the one that I can confirm to work is hard to find. I originally was using this noname thing, www.bol.com/nl/p/scart-naar-hdmi-converter-met-audio-converter-scart-naar-hdmi-omvormer-scart-naar-hdmi-scart-adapter-scart-naar-hdmi-adapter-1080p-full-hd/9300000021053160?referrer=socialshare_pdp_iphoneappBut as it is noname it is very hard to search for the same one as everybody just lists it differently. This one worked though and was cheap. Some others I tried did not work at all or very bad, so it is really hit and miss. Also mind that Retrotink only does 40 column mode. If you also want 80, that SCART converter is actually by far the cheapest well working solution even if you have to buy a SCART to HDMI adapter. Of course if you go for grabbing a monitor, by far the most ideal thing to get for a PAL C128 is either a Commodore 1901 or a Commodore 1084S-D1. Check though if you go for a 1084S if you not have one of the many other variants without RGBI input or without composite input. For the C128 you ideally need composite and RGBI. See bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=850 for some, not even all variants, of those listed there only the 1084S-D1 is a suitable variant for the 128 (they were mainly meant as Amiga monitors, but this one is great for the C128 as well) Over here in the Netherlands actually grabbing such a monitor is rather possible as they do show up here on auction sites very frequently with acceptable prices (cheaper than the Retrotink mostly actually). Finally, with that SCART 40/80 adapter, also grabbing one of the very many SCART equiped CRT or LCD Tv’s available on auction sites is also a solution. Not sure where you are located, but plenty of those on auction sites here as basically every TV sold for decades in the whole PAL region until a few years ago had SCART. |
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Post by xahmol on Sept 1, 2022 7:53:25 GMT
Ah, now see your profile says Norway. No clue how the retro market is on auction sites in Norway, but afaik the Commodore scene in at least Sweden and Finland was (and is) quite big. And as I am in the Netherlands, what works for me on PAL machines should work for you as well.... And on SCART TVs, assume that also in Norway pretty much every TV sold from the late 80ies to a decade or so ago should have SCART input..... Any one of those TVs will do for both 40/80 column mode with that Sven Pook SCART adapter. Here that Sven Pook adapter in action showing 80 column on a standard Sony Trinitron CRT with signal from a PAL C128 flat.  |
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nordgeit
Windows User
More of an artist than a programmer... Currently. Might do something fun with my C128D
Posts: 3
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Post by nordgeit on Sept 1, 2022 12:59:32 GMT
Ah, now see your profile says Norway. No clue how the retro market is on auction sites in Norway, but afaik the Commodore scene in at least Sweden and Finland was (and is) quite big. And as I am in the Netherlands, what works for me on PAL machines should work for you as well.... And on SCART TVs, assume that also in Norway pretty much every TV sold from the late 80ies to a decade or so ago should have SCART input..... Any one of those TVs will do for both 40/80 column mode with that Sven Pook SCART adapter. The Norwegian market?
I don't have the greatest idea, what I do know is that we were the poorest of the nordics (if we ignore Iceland for obvious reasons) before we really got the whole oil deal going. So I think the scene is a bit less lively. Looking at Finn, the Norwegians choice of finding damn near anything from anyone else, it's hard because someone decided to post all their software cassettes... Individually. But most machines and monitors and other cool parts go for at least 1000 crowns... And most of them are pretty far away from the major populous.
Actually *looking* at the Sven Pook SCART adapter... I may just have wasted money on TWO (!) composite adapters, one with S-Video, but I say that SCART is the Crème de la crème of older video adapters, and it supports 80-column, so I'll take a look. I'll most likely be able to find an adapter that does the job, it shouldn't be that hard. A good idea after that would be to crack those open and take a look at the innards to see what kind of chips work with that, and then categorize and list those chips. Perhaps one day someone would be able to find the actual chip itself, create a custom one and combine it with the Pook adapter for a direct HDMI output... That would be fun!
Thanks for the info, I'll most likely be able to get what I need now.
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Post by xahmol on Sept 2, 2022 6:50:37 GMT
Maybe also interesting to know why I changed from that cheap SCART to HDMI adapter and Sven Pools adapter to my present much more expensive setup.
First that SCART to HDMI adapter. Issue is that the VDC 80 column chip of the C128 is extremely flexibel. It can do an infinite amount of resolutions and synch modes that the community is still discovering (as alas documentation on the chip is quite bad). Problem is that therefore the signal it produces can be very non standard. That is why many adapters choke on it or completely not work, and this one that worked needs to resynch for 5 seconds on any resolution change. And on top of that, also giving a status message that can not be shut of.
See this capture which I made with that:
As you can see it perfectly works, but on entering GEOS (which uses NTSC output in 80 column mode even on PAL machines, yes, the VDC can also change from PAL to NTSC on the fly) it pauses for a few seconds blanking the screen.
This is doable in normal software that uses standard modes or at least does not change modes often. But on demos like Risen from Oblivion that is a different thing. RfO changes modes all the time, causing the adapter to blank out all the time. So for demos, this is very limiting.
Connecting the Sven Pook adapter to my Framemeister solved that (but of course the Framemeister is not a very affordable solution, happend to be able to buy one very cheap on a local auction site though). See this capture from the Colour Spectrum demo made from the Sven Pook adapter going via the Framemeister:
This perfectly works, also for demos. Only reason I also swapped the Sven Pook adapter out for alternatives is that I learned of the new RGB2HDMI solution which promised to have perfect 80 column output. Which is true, compare the above output to the same demo captured now with the RGB2HDMI:
Huge improvement! But of course the RGB2HDMI solution costs more than the Sven Pook adapter and my original HDMI converter combined. And only does 80 column mode, so requiring a solution for 40 next to it.
That is how I came to my present setup. Also because I really want to be able to capture 40 and 80 screen output simultaneously. But yes, that cost me serious money 😉
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